Chakram newsletter #20, 2002

I've gotta try that wail at least once
by Sharon Delaney

Reneé is four performances into her portrayal of Lady Macbeth in the Shakespeare By the Sea production of Macbeth. And she's having fun. It's Shakespeare, a live audience and Lady Macbeth - none of which she thought she would be doing when Xena ended.


"Why do so many actors want to do Shakespeare?" I begin.
Reneé laughs. "you know, I don't think that many actors really do want to do Shakespeare."

"They just say they do?" I responded, pointing out that in nearly every interview actors give, they say they want to do Shakespeare.
"OMaybe they say they do, but I don't think many actors really enjoy trying to do a Shakespearean play. At least not nowadays," she explained. "I find that actors who are wanting to pursue TV or films don't seem to have much interest in classical theatre. If you talk with actors based in the theatre world, they have a different appreciation of the classics."
     "There's a naturalistic style for people who are pursuing film where they may not take any acting lessons at all. They're not going to go into theatre and they have this inner world they concentrate on more so than looking at the words of something more rhetorical."

"And the definition of rhetorical?" I asked.
"'The playful use of language' is how I look at it," she said with a joyful lilt in her voice. Playing with words is obviously something she enjoys very much.

"As opposed to works that are more emotional?" I queried.
"Right," Reneé said. "Where there are fewer words, but a great deal of emotional turmoil which is what the actor works on. They're focused on what the characters are feeling in these moments. With Shakespearean acting, although you have that inner process to deal with, you still have to be able to play with the language."

"Your mom said that when she was running lines with you, you had her keep an eye on your arm movements. What was that about?" I asked.
Reneé laughed. "I had her give my arms a whack if I started moving them. I learned that at the classes I took at the Will Geer Theatricum Botanicum. They would talk about using gestures that would enhance the words as opposed to using your body because you're nervous and you don't know what to do with it which distracts from the language. For instance, we would have to go up and do our monologues and I always used my head."

"Used your head?" I said curiously.
"I talk with my head a lot," Reneé chuckled. "I move it around and am quite animated with my body. I think that comes from the first job I had when I was sixteen. I was a Porky Pig costume character with a gigantic head. If you have a big head, you gotta use it!"
     "In class, the teacher would sometimes have someone come up behind me and put their hands gently to the sides of my head. If I tried to move it, at least I was aware of what I was doing. And I would still have to keep involved in the monologue. I think they call it 'leaky energy.' It showed me you don't need all that. It's just extra energy you can focus into the words."

"Do you think that's because in Shakespeare you are supposed to be focused on the words as opposed to emotional acting where the emotions might come out in your body movements?" I asked.
"You lent me those tapes of the Royal Shakespeare Company acting classes and they talk about finding a balance between the emotional elements of being connected with the material versus the technical aspects of coloring the words and making sure they're heard," she explained. "They say you have to have elements of both. You can go too far either way. I think if you concentrate too much on technique, you lose the truth of what you're saying. You want to be naturalistic. On one of the tapes, they were working on a speech in Hamlet - Act 3, Scene 2 - where Shakespeare writes about how actors should be on the stage. They should be naturalistic in movement, but not overly dramatic because then you lose the impact of the words."

As we were talking about hand gestures, I wanted to bring up a question I had recently asked Lucy. "Xena, the aloof, repressed Warrior, always seemed to be putting her hand on Gabrielle's hair, her cheek, her shoulder. While Gabrielle, the emotional, bighearted, puppy-dog kid, never touched Xena like that. Are you aware of that?" I asked.
"Really!" she said in amazement.

"Lucy thought about that for a moment," I told Reneé, "and she said, 'I would think that nobody who's in a more submissive role feels they have the permission to touch their boss."
Reneé agreed. "That's true'"

"Lucy said her family wasn't touchy-feely, but she's that way with her daughter," I added.
"There ya go. So perhaps Xena was relating to Gabrielle as her daughter, maybe? The maternal quality," Reneé laughed.

"Are you a touchy-feely person in real life?" I investigated further.
"I think I am. I'm like one of those good ole boys when I know someone pretty well," she laughed.

"Did you have to stop any natural instinct to touch Xena?" I wondered.
"I don't think stopping such an instinct would have pertained to Gabrielle," she said thoughtfully. "Because she was such a lovable character. Not moving too much during Shakespeare probably doesn't apply to all types of material. It just happens to work well with him because the words are so strong and you don't want to detract from that. But I don't know if I woulc carry that over as a general rule."

"Was Gabrielle frightened of Xena?" I asked.
This cracked Reneé up. "I just don't think Gabrielle was ever frightened of Xena. I think it might have been my interpretation of her that she was outgoing and she was in awe of Xena. I don't think she ever felt fear of Xena or Xena's history. And that is one of the things that probably made her warm and inviting to Xena. She was one of the few people who wasn't afraid of her."

"Was she naïve?"
"I definitely think so. gabrielle wasn't looking at the whole picture," Reneé laughed. "And she was so feisty. She didn't really know who she was dealing with."
    "I wish I'd kept a journal of my time on Xena," Reneé sighed. "At the time, you think you won't forget anything. I wih I'd kept a journal about my time working on Lady Macbeth."

"What would you have been writing about?" I queried.
"How I tried to apply different techniques I'd learned," she explained. "To see what was working for me and what wasn't. After a week of not doing a performance, I find I go to certain aspects of the character that I feel I can connect with. But then, if I go further, I get to the heightened role that I believe Shakespeare wrote. But it takes me a while to get there. I think if I'd had a journal, I could skip those first processes and get where I need to be right away."

I wondered if having a week off between performances had an impact on a performer.
Reneé said it did. "After the week off, I went to places where I could connect with the character that I had found in the beginning stages of the rehearsal process.During rehearsals, I took the character beyond that. After being off for a week, I went right back to where I was in the beginning. Really frustrating," she chuckled ruefully. "I knew where I needed to be. I think that expectation is what kept throwing me. It just felt so off."

"What does it mean to connect with a character?" I asked. "How do you approach a role that so many famous actors have done?"
"The role is so intimidating. I initially didn't want to see anyone else's work," Reneé laughed. "I tried to ignore the fact that so many people had done it and approach it in my own way. I needed to figure out how I could emotionally find a truth where I understood what the character was going through. That's what I mean by connecting with the character. I tried to find certain things that would give me a path to understand her journey."

There are a few versions of Macbeth on video. "Did you look at anyone else's performances of Lady Macbeth?" I asked.
"The guy playing Macbeth lent me Ian MacKellen and Judi Dench's version of it," Reneé answered. "Once I had an idea what I wanted to do with the character, I looked at the tape. Judi Dench is amazing! And I found a place where she did something unusual."
    "Macbeth says, 'The raven himself is hoarse that croaks the fatal entrance of Duncan under my battlements.' That's such a classic line. And she changed the rhythm of the speech, the iambic pentameter. I was playing with it in my own way. But when I saw her do it, she put these pauses in that line because there are too many beats. You try to figure out where you want to put your pause so that it balances out to an even number. I kept playing with it and playing with it and I finally ended up with something I really liked. And then I realized it was what Judi had done."

"I was astounded by Judi's version of the candle scene," I said in amazement.
"You mean with the sigh?" Reneé said. "That really haunted me after I saw the video. I kept thinking, 'Oh my God, do I have to do that? Should I try to do that?' I kept playing with it and I decided to give up my expectation of trying to be Judi Dench. That wasn't gonna happen," she laughed.
    She continued. "Talking about all the actors who have played the character, that was one of those moments I had to get out of my mind. I had to find a way to connect with the character's agony and remorse and damnation. I had to find those in my own way. And let it go. But I still think of her. It breaks my heart just thinking about it. That wailing. That really gets me. I think I'm scared to go there. I'm scared to try something that broad. It's so brave of Judi to do that. I just love it. I've gotta try it at least once," she laughed.

"Lady Macbeth commits suicide after that scene," I began, "and I wondered if the audience is supposed to have a sense of forboding as she walks up the stairs with the candle?"
"I think at the very end of the scene, I try to have her, in some way, come up with the idea of what's next for her," Reneé explained. "I don't know if anyone in the audience is thinking that. If thay're familiar with the play, they are."
    "At the end of the candle scene she says, 'What's done cannot be undone.' That's the breaking point for her. And then, 'to bed, to bed, to bed,' is when she decides she'll do the deed. That's how I thought it would be fun to play it. But I don't know if the audience gets it. That that's her 'last walk'."

Reneé has had the oddest series of coincidences lately. Xena lost her head in the finale of the show. For her class at the Will Geer seminar, she was assigned the character of Imogen in the play Cymbeline who discovers her headless husband and, now, in this play, Macbeth is beheaded at the end. "How did you manage in one career to do three parts with decapitated heads?" I asked.
"I don't know," Reneé laughed in amazement. "It's funny, but Patrick Vest, who plays Macbeth, had that head cast on himself when he was playing the role of Cloten in Cymbeline. And that character Cloten is the same character I, playing Imogen, am looking at when she views the headless body in the scene study scene we talked about in our last interview. It's funny that Patrick had played that part and that's why he had his own head. He says that's why he was cast as Macbeth," Reneé said laughing.

"You auditioned for this role? Did they know you'd been playing Gabrielle on Xena?" I asked.
"I did audition," she began. "I took in my resume which I had recently updated. I had taken out my theatre credits because a lot of it was from college and high school. I haven't done any professional theatre in a long time. I went in for the audition, thinking they would recognize Xena on the resume, but they only looked for theatre credits abd didn't take any note of my TV experience. They were concerned that I didn't have any theatre experience. It did came up in the discussion that I had taken the Will Geer Theatricum Botanicum Shakespeare Seminar and that helped. I went ahead and did my monologue and I guess it worked."

"What Lady Macbeth monologue did you do?" I queried.
"I was doing a general monologue for any character at that time. It wasn't for a specific play yet," Reneé explained. "I did Portia from The Merchant of Venice - Act 3, Scene 2."
    "She's speaking to Lord Bassanio who she's madly in love with. He choses the correct answer for a test she gives him to see if he has the integrity it would take to be the lord of her entire kingdom. This man has nothing. But she loves him so much, she's willing to give everything to him if he's worthy of it. It's her speech that begins, 'You see me, Lord Bassanio, where I stand, such as I am. Though for myself alone I would not be ambitious in my wish, to wish myself much better. Yet, for you I would be trebled twenty times myself,'" Reneé recites. "After that, thay called me back for Lady Macbeth and asked me what I'd been doing. That's when Xena came up."

"Was that a plus or a minus?" I teased.
She laughed. "It's funny. A lot of people have preconceived ideas of how a TV actor will be on stage. And they're not exactly the most complimentary. I think a number of people were a bit dubious about my being cast. But, there you go," she chuckled lightly.

"Where there changes you had to make from the skills you've been honing for six years on TV?" I asked.
"Much of it is the same, but instead of your focus being right in front of you, it's hundreds of feet away," Reneé said. "It wasn't as difficult as I thought it would be."

I saw Macbeth on three nights, sitting in three different locations. I realized that where I sat not only affected what I saw, but also what I took away from the play. Case in point. Macbeth comes onto the stage, facing forward, with bloody hands. Lady Macbeth is standing near him with the side of her face to the audience. He turns to her with his hands outstretched and she backs away.
     The first night, I was sitting on the right side and saw the back of Reneé's head. Because she pulled back, I thought Lady Macbeth didn't want to get the blood on her clothes, didn't want to get dirty. The second night, I was on the opposite side of the audience. I could see Reneé's face and she seemed to be recoiling in fear from the blood on Macbeth's hands. She was afraid of what they'd done and the blood was the physical manifestation of their deed.
"She didn't want to get blood on her dress. Can't get those damn spots out of that fabric," Reneé chortled. Then, more seriously, she responded, "That's interesting because it comes down to the staging on the set. I guess I'm responsible for some of it, but then the other half is out of my hands because the director places us in general areas."
    "You worry, as an actor, do I need to make this big to overcompensate for the people behind me who can't see my expression? I just have to let that go, otherwise it becomes a moment that takes five seconds instead of two. Especially with Shakespeare when you're moving on so fast."
    "I could probably cheat that," Reneé said thoughtfully. "I can come up behind him a bit more so he has to turn toward me and then the audience would see my face."

"Turn it into modern sentences?" I queried.
"yes, that's one way to do it," Reneé began. "But he also introduced us to the rhetoric. We would look for the similes and metaphors to find phrases where we could create parenthetical phrases. Meaning, they aren't as important as the verb and the noun which is what you have to punch so people know what's going on. Or, he would explain other words that would create balance with each other and those are the ones that you highlight when you're looking at the metaphor of a phrase. Otherwise, if you stress every single word, people have no idea what you're talking about even if it sounds great."

"So?" I prodded. "Is she frightened or disgusted?"
"We chose that she's frightened," Reneé stated. "It's the first time the deed is bigger than her. The fact that she backs away is a sign that she's wavering in her determination. Experimenting in rehearsals, we decided we wanted Macbeth to feel alone for the first time. He's been relying on his wife. She instigated the whole thing. The fact that she backs away from his hands - and the deed - shows her true character. It also shows that he is alone. That's when he starts to turn and carry on the rest of the murders without her input."

"Lady Macbeth is a nasty bit of business," I began. "How do you show her humanity?"
"From the very beginning of the rehearsal process, we talked about how this woman thinks her husband should be the king because of his character." Reneé laughs, "It's so demented."
    Then she begins to discuss the heart of Lady Macbeth, the part Reneé used to connect to this character. "It's her love for Macbeth that propels him into this whole conspiracy. That is at the core of what moves her forward rather than her own ambition. And it creates a more human character. She's not just this cold villainess who's trying to move ahead to further her own goals."

"She doesn't just want to be the power behind the throne?" I asked.
"That is an interpretation a lot of people take. What I find so fascinating is that there are so many different takes on the characters in this play. But what we were trying to grasp is that Lady Macbeth wants to lift her husband up to the king. It's because of her love that she makes this huge sacrifice by condemning her own soul in order to let him reign," Reneé says excitedly.
    "There's a hint of her own ambition there. Which is a layer I think is relevant and I try to bring in just a little bit. But I really do believe the whole plan is borne out of her love for him. So when he pulls away from her in the scene where she says, 'Why do you keep alone?' she's just crushed that after all of this, he has nothing to do with her. He resents her." She thinks for a minute and then continues.
    "I don't really want her to be a bitch. I think she's a manipulator. She can be cold and ruthless, but she's trying to find ways to push his buttons in order to get him to do the act. That's how I think of it." Reneé pauses. "I hope she's not a bitch. I keep trying to find the love between them so that it's not too callous."

"So, once all the work was done and the curtain was ready to rise," I said, "were you nervous on opening night?"
"Oh, yes," she said with a laugh. "I wasn't worried about the Shakespeare and I wasn't worried about being in front of a lot of people because for me that's what it's all about. I'm there to present his words and I really love that. But the fact that I had certain people in the audience that I knew, that made me nervous."

I'm thinking of kissing scenes with Macbeth and having a husband, Steve, in the audience. "Could that have been what was causing the pre-curtain jitters," I asked teasingly.
"No," Reneé said immediately. "Well, actually, I take that back. I do think that first night I was aware Steve was there and that we had a kissing scene. I had tried to warn Steve about it," she laughed. "It wasn't disconserting. I think I was just aware of his feelings. But, obviously, I had to let that go. We talked and he's perfectly fine with it. I think I was nervous about what his initial reaction would be the first night."

"He's never seen you kissing someone else before?" I asked.
"He's seen me kiss Ted and Kevin Smith on the show," Reneé said, "but that was on TV. To see it live is probably a bit different. But I think that there's a great aspect of having people in the audience that you know and that you care about that elevates your performance as well. Maybe it's the nerves. Does that make sense? You can play with your friends. And I love having the live audience right there to respond," she said enthusiastically.
    She continued. "I'm really surprised at how attentive and quiet everyone is during the play. I was expecting there would be more distractions. But I guess it shows everyone's really trying to grasp the words and understand what's going on. I really appreciate that."

"How did you feel after opening night?"
"I thought it went pretty well," Reneé said after thinking a bit. "Especially for a first night. I think that's the coldest you are, going out the first time having the organic quality of a live audience with you. During the second night, Macbeth and Lady Macbeth's energy was different toward each other. That made me really look into her deterioration more. Focusing on the fact that she gets into this desperate state at the end. And I really found that the second night. Just because of how Patrick and I were working off each other. It was interesting. By the third night we had the rhythm of the play."

"And then you had a week off before you did the show again," I told her.
"Yeah," she laughed ruefully. "I wished I had rehearsed more throughout the week. I'll have to do that this time because I didn't do it enough."

"The company doesn't rehearse during the seek, does it?" I asked.
"No," Reneé said. "We have to work on our own. But there's so many layers to the character, I found that if I don't keep on top of her, I resort to going back to my flat layers of connecting with her. And I felt flat that night after being away from her for one week."

"How do you practice on your own?" I wondered.
"I've tried a couple different ways," Reneé explained. "If there's not a baby in the house, then I'll be in the house projecting. For me, it helps to practice my projection. But there's a dog park not far from us and there's hardly ever anyone around when I go, so I've been practicing there," she laughed.

"Somebody's going to walk past and find Lady M in the bushes!" I said in mock horror.
"With her dog!" Reneé shot back. "Isn't that hilarious?" She roared with laughter at the image. "I have to make sure I don't make too much of a spectacle."

"I'll come and ball you out," I teased. Continuing on, "Do you need to rehearse full out?"
She thought for a moment. "I think that's the mistake I made that first week. I rehearsed in my head very casually with the words to make sure I knew them. But I didn't rehearse organically in connecting with the character. That's where I made my mistake. So that when I did try to connect with her that night when we did the play again, I was doing it in a superficial way."

"Would you rehearse gabrielle the same way?" I asked.
"No," Reneé said. "We were living those characters practically around the clock, five days a week, sometimes six. I never had the down time. So there was no need to rehearse. We were so good at knowing the characters and their relationship that we could take a new page of dialogue, if we had to, and learn it in an hour or less."

"Are you a quick study?"
Reneé laughed. "I am with most scripts, but not with Shakespeare."

There were some bits and pieces of questions I had about the show. And, as the clock was winding down, I thought I'd toss them in.
    "When Lady Macbeth dies, who screams? Is it you giving her death screams?"
"It's her lady-in-waiting," Reneé explains. "In the play it says, 'A lady screams within.' It doesn't say Lady Macbeth. We assume the woman finds her dead. However, the guy playing the messenger, who comes out to tell Lady Macbeth that the king is coming, is going to Turkey for a few performances. So the girl that plays the lady-in-waiting is going to pick up some of his lines. It turns out I'm going to have to do my own scream. Which is fine, but it's going to change. I'm going to play it like she's killing herself. Bet hardly anyone will notice," Reneé laughed.

"What do you do when you're playing dead? Make out your shopping list?" I teased.
"that's funny," Reneé chuckled. "Mostly I'm trying not to show that I'm still breathing. I try to think of what someone looks like when they're sleeping, to completely relax."

"Your head looks very uncomfortable," I told her.
"But does it look dead?" she laughed.

"Yes," I stated.
"Oh, good," she laughed and thought for a minute. "I think someone dead would be looking uncomfortable."

"Would you ever want to direct thatre, Madame Director?" I posed.
"It's funny you should say that," Reneé said. "I've learned so much about how to present Shakespeare that if an opportunity came up, I would definitely try to do it."

"At this point in your life, is there a particular area in which you'd like to work?" I asked.
"I just want to find good work," she began, "I'm not so worried about the medium. Even theatre. I love the theatre. I just have to ride this journey because I am a bit stereotyped at the moment as Gabrielle, from an action series. I have to let that ride its course. But I want to stay creative for however long this takes. I really love the theatre and I suspect I might try to pursue that and directing. Everything," she laughed.

"you're young, there's time to do it all," I said.
"Yeah!" Reneé answered cheerfully.

"Would you have to be famous to stay in the business?" I explained further. "I just read an article about Neve Campbell when she was promoting an indie feature. She said she's got money in the bank from Party of Five and this was a part she wanted to do. It's the work that fulfills her, not dependent on the fame and fortune that can come with it."
Reneé thought for a moment. "I think that's why I'm so fascinated with theatre. Because it's a collaboration. It reminds me of the atmosphere working in New Zealand on Xena. The family community that puts something on together because they care so much about the work. Yeah, I would have to be doing something. That's just a part of my nature. I need to have a creative outlet where I can do something of significance to communicate with people."
    "I think I'll always be doing this," she continued. "If I wound up doing something else, if I weren't getting that satisfaction through acting or directing, it would only be because I found another outlet for my creative energy. Something artistic."

"Shakespeare by the Sea is a very 'everyone chip in' affair. For those who haven't seen the play, how does the day start?" I queried.
"We all meet at the theatre and pull the pieces of the set out from behind the bandshell," Reneé began. "We're each assigned different jobs. Some of the actors build the set. Some do the set dressing. Some put the costumes in each actor's designated area backstage. I'm in charge of the props. I have to make sure they're all accounted for and that they're in place before the show begins."

"Are you responsible for Birnam Wood," I joked.
Reneé laughed. "Yes. I have to place Birnam Wood in a designated area so it's accessible to the actors during the play. And I have to retrieve them at the end and make sure they go back where they belong. We don't want some local gardner throwing Birnam Wood away."

"The bandshell where you perform is very small. Where do you put on makeup and get changed?" I asked.
"Some people put on their makeup backstage. There are mirrors lying against the back wall," Reneé explained. The lighting isn't too good back there, so a lot of the actors come outside and put their makeup on. There's a curtain between the ladies and men's area for changing. We have a general amount of time where we make sure we've accomplished all our duties. Then it's time to warm up vocally."

"And after the play ends?" I prompt.
"We go back to our designated duties and break down the set. I think everyone goes out for beers, but I go home to my baby," Reneé laughed. "Oh, yeah, and I always get blood all over my costume so I take it home to wash out those damn spots!"



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